Curse

Golgotha · May 12, 2011, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

LoL, and guess what.. Everquest2 allows raid groups to "save" an instance now so they can take it up again where they left off, including areas already cleared.

Wake up.. it's not a difficulty thing.. it is a time thing. The idiotic timesinks of early Everquest and others are a dead thing of the past, and getting deader as companies realize that the casual gamer is the one with both the checkbook and the smallest blocks of gaming time.

I still fail to see the difference in killing the same mobs, in the same area, to the same end result.. and with roughly the same time committed.. the only difference being that it could be done in "chunks" of time rather than one session. How is that a "c-space" win?

Because it's different than how he did it, obviously.

Godess Charmaine · May 12, 2011, 03:13 AM // 03:13

did any where i baged sf umm no.

As some of you had understood me i have np with the content in uw and wouldnt care if they made the area even a little more diffcult, all I am say is TIME is a major issue with it.

I dont need to sc an area had enough of 600ing cof to last me . I love the challenge of working at hard areas I would just like uw to have some form of save opton.

If you are worried about econamy of ectos make it so that once you have cleared an area poped the reaper and done his quest then that area stayes cleared till you have completed the entire thing. ecto farming then wouldnt be an issue.

then if you get wiped by one challenge you dont go back to start you work harder at that till you can finish it.

Hell make the area harder throw in some serous bad ass dragons like rotwing or something lol wouldnt bother me, be even more fun.

and for thouse of you saying I am inexperanced at playing games I remeber when PONG was realeasd and that was the bigest challenge out.

lol cheers

Chthon · May 12, 2011, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

UW is definatly doable for a casual player with the right hero setup, even in HM.

Uh... KUMan, are you on crack today? I cannot imagine a "casual player" doing 4H in HM with heroes. Not even by cloning Jack or Jeydra's build. And then Dhuum is a whole other problem. At best, cons plus stealing a build might get maybe the more skillful half of "casual players" past UW NM.

Quote:

The root of this issue (offcourse, what else) is Shadowform, or any other form of imbalanced tanking. This problem has 2 negative impacts on the game for other professions, a direct one and an indirect one.

The direct one obviously being that a Shadowform sin not only can tank an infinite (Virtually) amount of enemies, it can also kill them in "the blink of an eye" (Read: just as as fast as a balanced group would having to killing them one by one).

The indirect one that Anet kept buffing and buffing PvE to counter Shadowform sins. UW was already one of the hardest areas in the game, and Anet kept adding counters skill to farm builds, which ironically always got circumvented by those exact teams, which completely destroyed the ability for a balanced team (In which any profession could participate) to exist.

This is spot on. UW is such a huge pain in the arse for normal teams because of all the changes made for those stupid SF sins.

The best solution would be to just do what always should have been done and make SF non-maintainable. (Combined with removing a lot of the skeletons and reverting some of the quest spawns.)

The second-best solution is to do change Clear the Chamber in such a way that SF can't ever get past it. (Again, combined with rolling back most of the changes made to counter SCs.) Perhaps double the size of the squid mobs by adding some D/N squids with a bunch of "rending X" skills and a monster skill that creates a Well of Profane when they die? Or perhaps convert all the squids into touchers? E/Me with Stoneflesh, heavy hex removal, dual visages, and PBAoE? Monster skill that increases the recharge of your skills and removes an enchant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fester555

in all honesty uw doesnt take 3 hours my guild does it in under a conset or at a max of 45 mins

Some variant on a speed clear. I don't believe that it's possible for a true balanced team (whole team does everything together; no SF or other gimmick builds splitting to complete areas solo) to do it in less than 1:20. 1:40 is a lot closer to normal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spun ducky

Here I'll make it simple stop being shitty players.

It's ironic that we usually hear this from people who couldn't possibly complete UW if a-net took away their SF.

spun ducky · May 12, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I am not a big user of SF as I find it quite boring even though I did make the R/A whirling build for farming. I've completed most of uw minus quests solo as seen in some of my old farm builds.

The time taken to complete a zone directly correlates to the players skill level. I do agree the base line for UW is quite a bit higher than other zones but that is a good thing as the end game content is quite lacking in GW. If they did make changes to allow picking up where you left off in UW they better have a fool proof way of making it so it can't be abused for farming.
I would agree to adding a way to resume quests but I don't have faith in anet to actually make it fool proof hence I prefer the current situation.

I think personally the best way to end the SF abuse in it's extreme form is to replace dying nightmares with random stormcloud incubus spawns. If they did this a good SF user could still survive at times while making it inconsistent enough to cause them to keep a main team nearby just in case. It would really slow down the SC teams and it would allow the skeletons to be removed or reduced.

So enough of ruffling peoples' feathers I think I will see what can be done for builds to pop reapers that use either alternate spell protection or none at all. I think that could be a fun challenge.

Net The Nabi · May 12, 2011, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Time. Is. A. Part. Of. Difficulty.

If time is THAT MUCH a problem for you, that you can't even plan to do it ONCE. either Speed Clear it, or simply give up. Asking any game developers to make MAJOR changes to one of their most significantly difficult things simply because you and a less than majority of others can't organize a get together to do it is in my eyes absurd. Just like calling for a nerf of SF is absurd when Obby Flesh is more powerful tenfold. So many people who refuse to use a skill they find breaks the game are angry and bitter at the wrong thing. Its not the users of SF's fault that its in the game, nor is it our fault that there are cons which make it easy to maintain. Its not our fault that the UW is long, and in comparison to majority of the game marginally more difficult. Even if Skeles where taken out of UW, and SF was nerfed/made unmaintainable, it doesn't improve much of anything for a balanced team. Sure one less difficult foe, but you still have hundreds you need to best in order to get to and complete each quest, you still can't let a reaper die, nor have a party wipe. You still have to face Dhumm, which in all honesty isn't so awful. So why call for SF to be nerfed? Why call for the removal of skeles? To cut the time it would take you minimally? Is that extra 15-20 minutes that crucial? We don't call for skill nerfs and buffs, we just adapt, grow, and get better. Any class could be used in UW, plenty of balancedways went down during the halloween quests for the tot bags.

And Verene, I didn't say the point of RPGs was completion, I don't feel that way at all. But rather completion and time, are, from what I can see, the only measurable things in regard to how well you've done at(quest, mission, elite area, whatever) X. And well, as I said before if your not aiming for speed, which is well within you're rights to do, just aiming for completion, it is my belief that you should have to actually go through the whole thing to complete it, that breaking it up, changing things so they are easier then originally intended, isn't right. I'd like to know what you've found more difficult then a balanced UW, or anything regarding to UW. The only place I think even comes close is DoA, and yet as a balanced team you can go in, specify you're builds to an area, and then go for a whole new strategy with another, and that ALONE makes anything broken into pieces easier.

cthulhu reborn · May 12, 2011, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I always thought that there was a place for a few elite areas. UW and DoA seem to fit that bill the best and I think it's ok that there are places that are tough.

However, there are a couple of issues related to this where I agree with a need for change. It's true that there are always a couple of gimmick builds that seem to make those areas easy to farm: as long as you play the builds. To me that makes a tough area too easy for the farmers. If UW is supposed to be elite then it shouldn't be a farmer's easy farm for ecto's and such. So I agree with the opinions that these gimmicky builds have it too easy.

The second problem is that UW is basically the only source for ecto's...a rare material needed for armour in FoW...do you see why this is odd? FoW is a lot easier compared to UW but getting the most important material is not possible in FoW.

I think it would be better that ecto's also drop in FoW if UW is supposed to be extra tough. Of course the drop rate should be lower to keep UW interesting. But I wonder how many of these ecto farmers actually still are after FoW armour and chaos gloves and why Anet would limit the main material to an area that is basically not there for the more casual player, even if that player puts in a lot of hours.

I for one, see an odd inconsistency in this. Elite zones are fine...restricting materials to zones like that that are needed for items elsewhere I don't agree with.

DoA is set up better for that: At least the gems are only useable for items you can get there and not somewhere else.

Net The Nabi · May 12, 2011, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I always thought that there was a place for a few elite areas. UW and DoA seem to fit that bill the best and I think it's ok that there are places that are tough.

However, there are a couple of issues related to this where I agree with a need for change. It's true that there are always a couple of gimmick builds that seem to make those areas easy to farm: as long as you play the builds. To me that makes a tough area too easy for the farmers. If UW is supposed to be elite then it shouldn't be a farmer's easy farm for ecto's and such. So I agree with the opinions that these gimmicky builds have it too easy.

The second problem is that UW is basically the only source for ecto's...a rare material needed for armour in FoW...do you see why this is odd? FoW is a lot easier compared to UW but getting the most important material is not possible in FoW.

I think it would be better that ecto's also drop in FoW if UW is supposed to be extra tough. Of course the drop rate should be lower to keep UW interesting. But I wonder how many of these ecto farmers actually still are after FoW armour and chaos gloves and why Anet would limit the main material to an area that is basically not there for the more casual player, even if that player puts in a lot of hours.

I for one, see an odd inconsistency in this. Elite zones are fine...restricting materials to zones like that that are needed for items elsewhere I don't agree with.

DoA is set up better for that: At least the gems are only useable for items you can get there and not somewhere else.

But almost any class can farm ectos :/ and Its not like the farmers can just go through and complete the whole thing.

Sins
Eles
Ranger
Monk
Warrior
Derv
Rit
Mes

That leaves Para and Necro. Para is Anets fault since it was meant to be a team player, and Necro would need a partner.

Elnino · May 12, 2011, 08:15 AM // 08:15

People actually believe that speed clears and the overpowered-skills used in them are okay and don't need to be nerfed? How delusional can people get . . .

To the people saying that shadowform (and other skills used in SC's) takes skill, you are painfully mistaken.

@Net The Nabi: You have been saying a lot of pro-SC stuff, defending something that has impacted this game negatively as a whole and I don't feel like writing a huge wall of text (again) explaining why speed clears and skills like shadowform/obsidian flesh are bad for this game because it's pretty obvious that they are. No one is blaming the SF users that it is in the game. No one blames them for using it but it is extremely foolish of them to be arguing for a skill that is clearly a big fish in a small pond and shows how much this game's high-end community has deteriorated as a result of ridiculous buffs to certain skills (by anet).

cthulhu reborn · May 12, 2011, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

But almost any class can farm ectos :/ and Its not like the farmers can just go through and complete the whole thing.

Sins
Eles
Ranger
Monk
Warrior
Derv
Rit
Mes

That leaves Para and Necro. Para is Anets fault since it was meant to be a team player, and Necro would need a partner.

Sorry I should've been more specific. To me speed clearing is farming. And yes I am also against being able to solo farm in elite areas...that is even more ridiculous to me.

Bright Star Shine · May 12, 2011, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I always thought that there was a place for a few elite areas. UW and DoA seem to fit that bill the best and I think it's ok that there are places that are tough.

However, there are a couple of issues related to this where I agree with a need for change. It's true that there are always a couple of gimmick builds that seem to make those areas easy to farm: as long as you play the builds. To me that makes a tough area too easy for the farmers. If UW is supposed to be elite then it shouldn't be a farmer's easy farm for ecto's and such. So I agree with the opinions that these gimmicky builds have it too easy.

The second problem is that UW is basically the only source for ecto's...a rare material needed for armour in FoW...do you see why this is odd? FoW is a lot easier compared to UW but getting the most important material is not possible in FoW.

I think it would be better that ecto's also drop in FoW if UW is supposed to be extra tough. Of course the drop rate should be lower to keep UW interesting. But I wonder how many of these ecto farmers actually still are after FoW armour and chaos gloves and why Anet would limit the main material to an area that is basically not there for the more casual player, even if that player puts in a lot of hours.

I for one, see an odd inconsistency in this. Elite zones are fine...restricting materials to zones like that that are needed for items elsewhere I don't agree with.

DoA is set up better for that: At least the gems are only useable for items you can get there and not somewhere else.

Did you even think before posting this? Like, seriously? FoW armor requires both Ecto and SHARDS, an item exclusive to FoW. In fact, ecto's CAN drop in FoW, from the Banshees. Also, ecto isn't the most important material, you need an equal amount of ecto and shards to do it.

Another thing, FoW was meant to be harder than UW at the start -this can be seen from various things: collectibles that drop in FoW salvage for more than things in UW, the Forgeman is in FoW, and getting the armor was supposed to be hard, FoW has 11 quests as opposed to UW's original 10 etc- it's just because of powercreep that FoW has become easier than UW. Also, farming builds for FoW used to thrive as well..

Arm · May 12, 2011, 01:59 PM // 13:59

the people whining about the time it takes - to this I say uw is the only place you can get eblades and mini dhuums which kinda makes sense that it should take the longest.

As far as the skeles added for sc's they're not that much of a problem once you know where they patrol, they're actually squishy.

And as far as the sc's in general I believe anet should regularly update uw to make it tougher for sc's. This isn't from an anti-sc standpoint (I've basically retired from sc's ;P) because the players who play sc often and enjoy it would welcome the new challenges to keep sc's fresh. Also the players who don't like sc's would be happy because less people would be able to keep up with changes.

And while on the subject ;P as far as sc's go in general sf is definately not god, join some pugs and see the fail rates on most groups. Also most people fail and spend a considerable amount of money while learning areas/roles of sc's.

Golgotha · May 12, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arm

the people whining about the time it takes - to this I say uw is the only place you can get eblades and mini dhuums which kinda makes sense that it should take the longest.

Except, we're debating the time it takes in one sitting. We're not trying to cut down the time to complete the entire area. That is a important distinction many on your side of the argument are either not grasping or overlooking purposefully.

How would any of said items value diminish if the area was still just as difficult, or even more difficult as many of us suggested as a trade off, only could be completed in portions?

A scenario outlined like I did here (click) would actually work for everyone, would it not?

Missing HB · May 12, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arm

And while on the subject ;P as far as sc's go in general sf is definately not god, join some pugs and see the fail rates on most groups. Also most people fail and spend a considerable amount of money while learning areas/roles of sc's.

And while on the subject , join some non-sc pugs and see the fail rates on most groups...
I still believe it's quite harsh failing on dhuum after 1 hour 30 than failing at 4h after 25mn.....( but wait , dhuum and skeletons were supposed to slow down sc teams yes..)

Gabs88 · May 12, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

You don't need to complete the dungeon in HM in order to get it HoM approved and NM UW is extremely easy with heroes only using the spirit spamming method at 4 horsemen.

Voodoo Rage · May 12, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

I still think there is a disconnect between between thinking that "long and tedious and prone to random stuff happening that will cause you to fail" = "hard". Yes, it is harder but for the wrong reasons. I think hard should mean that you need to have optimal builds, optimal tactics, and experience in the game. Just having the will to grind through a long quest chain doesn't necessarily make you "elite". I really don't see what the SC'ers are so concerned about if they tweaked the way the quests checked off. You can still do your speed clear. Ecto prices are not going to change one iota since if people want to ecto farm that really has nothing to do with the quests (I can still pop in with my heroes and go farm the plains whenever I feel like it right now). OK, maybe a few Dhuum mini's pop over time. A few people get an extra .2 points on their HoM that they might not have achieved before. Is that really an issue?

I'm sorry, I think you guys are just coming across kind of selfish. "This is OUR place and we don't want other people to enjoy it." YOUR game play won't be affected AT ALL.

Jeydra · May 12, 2011, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

Playing in the Underworld for 3 hours straight just to get kicked out by Dhuum isn't exactly fun or productive. I would prefer a structure similar to Domain of Anguish. Where the Voice of Grenth would offer you a guest that requires you to do the bidding of each reaper inside the zone, and once the meta quest is completed the Reaper will deem you worthy of facing Dhuum himself. I guess this is just wishful thinking but the UW in it's current state is a dreadful experience for the majority of non-SC players.

Backing this. While pioneering UW HM 7H no cons, getting pwned by Dhuum after spending 3 hours of play was a major mental roadblock. So was taking ~30 minutes of non-casual play to get to any of the hard quests. If nothing else I'd suggest making Dhuum something like Mallyx: completing all the previous quests maps you out into ToA, and then you can head directly to confront Dhuum. But such a change would make UW HM a lot more flexible (you can run standard builds and then switch to something that's anti-Dhuum).

On other matters:

1. UW HM is doable 7H no cons, although it takes careful execution. With cons it's pretty simple. Relative to HM, NM is nothing much. So I'm seriously tempted to say in response to "can't get statue for HoM" - get better, not ask for changes.
2. Shadow Form is bull****. It's not just UW. Shadow Form is crazily overpowered in so many areas it's not funny. I really don't see why ANet hasn't nerfed it yet. Oh, and Obsidian Flesh is overpowered as well.
3. 3 hours is a long time to play without a break. Even if you take a break, you can't do anything else (e.g. step into Random Arena). This is something I don't like, but getting past this will take major, major revamping to UW.

cthulhu reborn · May 12, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Did you even think before posting this? Like, seriously? FoW armor requires both Ecto and SHARDS, an item exclusive to FoW. In fact, ecto's CAN drop in FoW, from the Banshees. Also, ecto isn't the most important material, you need an equal amount of ecto and shards to do it.

Of course I thought about it you smart ***. But guess what? The shards you get in the same place as where you get the armour. So there is no issue there.

How about you think before falling out against someone, hmm?

Bright Star Shine · May 12, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Of course I thought about it you smart ***. But guess what? The shards you get in the same place as where you get the armour. So there is no issue there.

How about you think before falling out against someone, hmm?

Lemme requote and highlight the flaws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

The second problem is that UW is basically the only source for ecto's...a rare material needed for armour in FoW...do you see why this is odd? FoW is a lot easier compared to UW but getting the most important material is not possible in FoW.

Ecto is not the most important material, it's equally important as Shards. You make it sound like buying 100+ shards or gathering them means nothing and is redundant when buying the armor.

Quote:

I think it would be better that ecto's also drop in FoW if UW is supposed to be extra tough. Of course the drop rate should be lower to keep UW interesting. But I wonder how many of these ecto farmers actually still are after FoW armour and chaos gloves and why Anet would limit the main material to an area that is basically not there for the more casual player, even if that player puts in a lot of hours.

Ecto's already drop in FoW, at a very low droprate, so no point there.

Quote:

I for one, see an odd inconsistency in this. Elite zones are fine...restricting materials to zones like that that are needed for items elsewhere I don't agree with.

There is nothing wrong with this. Getting FoW armor should be hard, costly and it makes sense that the 2 toughest elite areas -originally- in game provide those. Why does it strike you as odd that needing materials from another place for armor is considered normal? If you ask me, Cloth, Steel etc should also drop in FoW from now on! Because it doesn't make sense to me that I have to get them outside of the area where I want to get my armor.

Quote:

DoA is set up better for that: At least the gems are only useable for items you can get there and not somewhere else.

Coffers say hi.

Your entire theory is flawed because you consider items dropping in one place that are needed in the other to be bad. It makes perfect sense.

How about you reread your stuff and think about why I asked you if you thought it through before trying to outsmart *** me.

sixdartbart · May 12, 2011, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Bright you forgot to mention tombs for ectos, if you are gonna blow up someones arguement you may as well blow it up completely.

Epitaph · May 12, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

It seems like, to me people are just concerned about the fact that Speed Clears can do it 45minutes on average where as a Balanced (or not since people are opposed to that too) take about an hour to two hours.

Too be honest, I think adding the 'checkpoints' as people seem to be wanting because they are concerned about having to redo the quests 'again'. Which, Fissure of Woe is no different the groups there just run slightly differently than the groups in Underworld. This would change the entire mechanics of the zone, which all in all may not be a bad thing, but I would not be expecting to be any easier than it is right now in fact, if ANet were to do this they would (more than likely) make it more difficult to counterbalance the fact that you do not need to do it one sitting.

I have been both a 'casual' player and a Speed Clear player, I understand that Underworld can be difficult for those who do not have the time. It is not unreasonable for a game to offer some challenge to those who would like to have it. If you need the statue take up one of the easier roles in UWSC or ask some friends who might know how to do it and teach you the roles that are easier and require less 'effort' and time to put in. DoA and UW are completely different areas and are more than welcome to have completely different mechanics to run within them.